Consolidate, Forum too segmented Options

[Spastic Minnow]

I have to say- this forum is segmented way too much. Instead of separate sections for each artists it really needs to be sepated into "Artists" or "Releases" with subsections for each artist and let each subsection have threads about each separate album. Then a separate section for "Community" or something.

As it is, just not very inviting.

Some good features though.

[Honeycomb Jack]

I like the seperate sections for Ape artists - it keeps things clear. But I do think Harold Budd and Peter Blegvad could be in a subsection within an 'Andy's Collaborations' section. I'm liking it so far; I like the fact that it seems to be artist rather than fan orientated; hopefully this should lead to some good discussions!

[Spastic Minnow]

Fan/Artist orientation is a good point. It does seem this is very much a place for specific discussion on the artist releases rather than a fan community. Still, it could look something more like this:

ARTISTS
>Veda Hille
>>(With topics about Riot Life and Kildeer- which invites new threads about non-APE activity)
>The Milk and Honey Band
>>(Seaparte threads about albums and other topics)
>Pugwash
>>(Seaparte threads about albums and other topics)
>Andy Partridge (and maybe XTC if this is to be a substitution for Idea forum)
>>(Seaparte threads about albums and other topics- maybe incorporate collaborations)
>Andy Partridge Collaborations
(Seaparte threads about albums, Orpheus, Under The Hill, Monstance, suggestions and other topics- because, face it- they're good albums but there's only so much to say about them.)



MISCELLANEOUS
>Love and Hate
>Gallery
>Talk Amongst Yourselves
>Suggestions

I'm just saying it covers everything still and would look better. As for making things clear- the current setup also seems limiting. For example, when talking about Pugwash, can you only talk about the songs that will appear on Giddy? Where?

And if it's going to be changed, it should be done soon.

This post has been edited by Spastic Minnow: Feb 11 2009, 05:01 PM

[Jeff Truzzi]

No "Ape artists take questions" section?
No place to talk about XTC?

This post has been edited by Jeff Truzzi: Feb 11 2009, 06:29 PM

[Mr Tein]

I would also like to see a section on other music... I learn a lot from you guys on here and love deabting the merits of music and artisits I may not know

[Honeycomb Jack]

I say leave it as is for a while, let things get bedded in. At the moment it reflects the artists on the home page; let these artists be the focus for the forum and become the foundation, for now, at any rate.

There may be 'only so much' to discuss about the Blegvad/Budd albums, but I'd like to hope that its too early (the first day of the forum??) to quantify it and wrap it up so soon!

Why the rush to change things, Spastic Minnow?

[Spastic Minnow]

I say leave it as is for a while, let things get bedded in. At the moment it reflects the artists on the home page; let these artists be the focus for the forum and become the foundation, for now, at any rate.

There may be 'only so much' to discuss about the Blegvad/Budd albums, but I'd like to hope that its too early (the first day of the forum??) to quantify it and wrap it up so soon!

Why the rush to change things, Spastic Minnow?

I've been a regular on the XTC forums since the Idea forumn started, volunteer moderator at the "temporary" XTC one: http://xtcbackporch.forumup.com/, and a participant of a number of other forums as well. You get a good feel for what works by doing that.

Orpheus, Monstrance, Through The Hill never get alot of discussion in single threads at the XTC forums and while they may get a little more attention here, it won't be much, Very likely these are merely one-shot projects, not living, evolving bands that can keep discussion running or a huge catalog of work to dissect, compare and discuss... except with each other. It simply makes more sense for Andy collaborations like these to be discussed together.

Segmenting forums is always a enemy of accessibility. There's not a single forum I have ever visited that looks like this. Like subjects get bundled together. Narrowing a sections focus too much means a narrow discussion. If you really want to keep the subject it's alright but it's not flexible.

Nothing about consolidating the sections takes away from the artist focus. In fact I'd say it enhances it. Right now it isn't really "artist" focus" so much as "album" focus.
The other option is to adding a Miscellaneous Talk subsection to each Artist section where they can be discussed more broadly. Think about it, where in this format do you talk about the artist's live shows? Media coverage? Works in progress?

Making changes soon makes transitions easier. Better to make a change when there are only a dozen topics than 120. Steve's experience of trying to change around the Idea forum after six months can speak to that. (although the main problem there was inflexible software).

This post has been edited by Spastic Minnow: Feb 11 2009, 09:30 PM

[Spastic Minnow]

although I admit I only just noticed that you can collapse each section. That at least makes look neater and compact. I admit that that is an argument for keeping the sections separate. Although in that case each should include the "Miscellaneous Discussion" subsection to each artist section.

[Honeycomb Jack]

With all due respect, Spastic Minnow, the Xtcbackporch forum was more of a chatroom for friends who liked XTC, the majority of posts consisted of in jokes between one another and threads discussing the music of XTC (and XTC related music) tended to die a death. I was a member of that forum, and the main reason I didn't post was because of the lack of enthusiasm for such threads. And I wasn't alone; a quick look at the xtcbackporch member list shows that out of 221 members, 74 others plus myself didn't post at all; 140 posted 10 times or less;13 posted more than 500 times, with only 7 posting 1000 times or more.

I'm hoping that this forum will level the playing field and encourage more open discussion with new members taking part without feeling they're being vetted by the 'old guard'.

And with this being an official site, I'm hoping that this will be the case.

As I said at the start of this post, all due respect to you, but I'm hoping this forum will become a different animal.

[Jeff Truzzi]

With all due respect, Spastic Minnow, the Xtcbackporch forum was more of a chatroom for friends who liked XTC, the majority of posts consisted of in jokes between one another and threads discussing the music of XTC (and XTC related music) tended to die a death. I was a member of that forum, and the main reason I didn't post was because of the lack of enthusiasm for such threads. And I wasn't alone; a quick look at the xtcbackporch member list shows that out of 221 members, 74 others plus myself didn't post at all; 140 posted 10 times or less;13 posted more than 500 times, with only 7 posting 1000 times or more.

I'm hoping that this forum will level the playing field and encourage more open discussion with new members taking part without feeling they're being vetted by the 'old guard'.

And with this being an official site, I'm hoping that this will be the case.

As I said at the start of this post, all due respect to you, but I'm hoping this forum will become a different animal.

Likewise, all due respect, Jack,
but this already IS a different animal,
and Spastic does raise valid points.
There isn't even a place to talk about XTC here!
Or about the artists, other than specific albums.
Ape artists who play live may like to see places for those gigs to be discussed other than in album threads.

I believe a key to keeping things artist oriented is artist involvement.
Having Veda and the Milk & Honey boys (and Andy & Thomas) drop in and interact from time to time would keep things exciting (it certainly did on the old Idea XTC forum) and provide something you can't get on just any old board, making this 'official' forum even more special. Possibly Steve or Toby posting links to interviews and articles would be another (as opposed to relying on us fans surfing Google to find them.)

As to being 'vetted by the old guard',
this is the Year 1,
and we are ALL newbies,
regardless of our previous history (or lack thereof) on other forums.

It's nice to be a born-again virgin.
Again.
(IMG:http://ape.uk.net/forum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This post has been edited by Jeff Truzzi: Feb 11 2009, 11:34 PM

[Spastic Minnow]

Thanks, newbie!

Jack, to reiterate, You don't understand my point. Whatever the focus of a forum, it needs to be easy to navigate, relatively pleasing to the eye and while an artist focus is great, this forum as it stands now only allows narrow discussion of said artists, limited to talking about album content. I haven't suggested once that the comunity section needs be widdened- I noted that it isn't a community or "fan" focused forum- but that was an observation, not a critique.


But as you've brought it up- it ain't our fault that people don't come to the backporch forum to talk about XTC and, despite your due respect, it's slightly insulting that we DON'T talk about XTC. We actively welcome anyone who posts.

In the past WEEK alone we have talked about:
-oh wow, there's a new Ape forum (today of course)
-A novel that uses XTC refeences, with input from the author.
-The discovery of an old article/interview about the Dukes
-other APE updates
-XTC fans that are fisherman
-AP interview in Feb. Mojo and announcement there of the newest planned re-releases
-AP winning the BBC Folk award for "All You Pretty Girls"


All subjects you can, at this point, only discuss at the backporch forum or in weekly digests in the Chalkhills digest. 73 members don't want to participate, that's our and your loss. And like Jeff says, There is not a designated spot here ANYWHERE to talk about these subjects yet, so remember to use the present tense when talking about the Back Porch, until this or another official forum better suits a wider discussion of XTC subjects there's no reason to close up shop.

If subjects "die out" it's not because we don't care, it's because there's not much else to say. How much can you talk about "Tin Toy Clockwoork Train" before you have to stop? How many times and ways can you say what your favorite Fuzzy Warble tracks are?

If this forum does not want to be a forum like the old idea forum or the back porch- fine, that's great! I suspect that this will in fact be focused on only APE activities and there miught be revitalized XTC Forum/Fan forum elsewhere-- a bit redundant yes, but as long as Ape and XTC Idea have separate websites that might be the way to handle it- it'd be at least nice if they linked to each other if another forum was launched.

This post has been edited by Spastic Minnow: Feb 11 2009, 11:43 PM

[T.I.]

If bookies in Vegas had taken bets on who would be the first APE forum member to start a controversial thread, the odds on Spastic Minnow would have been a million-to-one. (IMG:http://ape.uk.net/forum/style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

[Persephone]

Thanks, newbie!

Jack, to reiterate, You don't understand my point. Whatever the focus of a forum, it needs to be easy to navigate, relatively pleasing to the eye and while an artist focus is great, this forum as it stands now only allows narrow discussion of said artists, limited to talking about album content. I haven't suggested once that the comunity section needs be widdened- I noted that it isn't a community or "fan" focused forum- but that was an observation, not a critique.


But as you've brought it up- it ain't our fault that people don't come to the backporch forum to talk about XTC and, despite your due respect, it's slightly insulting that we DON'T talk about XTC. We actively welcome anyone who posts.

In the past WEEK alone we have talked about:
-oh wow, there's a new Ape forum (today of course)
-A novel that uses XTC refeences, with input from the author.
-The discovery of an old article/interview about the Dukes
-other APE updates
-XTC fans that are fisherman
-AP interview in Feb. Mojo and announcement there of the newest planned re-releases
-AP winning the BBC Folk award for "All You Pretty Girls"


All subjects you can, at this point, only discuss at the backporch forum or in weekly digests in the Chalkhills digest. 73 members don't want to participate, that's our and your loss. And like Jeff says, There is not a designated spot here ANYWHERE to talk about these subjects yet, so remember to use the present tense when talking about the Back Porch, until this or another official forum better suits a wider discussion of XTC subjects there's no reason to close up shop.

If subjects "die out" it's not because we don't care, it's because there's not much else to say. How much can you talk about "Tin Toy Clockwoork Train" before you have to stop? How many times and ways can you say what your favorite Fuzzy Warble tracks are?

If this forum does not want to be a forum like the old idea forum or the back porch- fine, that's great! I suspect that this will in fact be focused on only APE activities and there miught be revitalized XTC Forum/Fan forum elsewhere-- a bit redundant yes, but as long as Ape and XTC Idea have separate websites that might be the way to handle it- it'd be at least nice if they linked to each other if another forum was launched.

Well said, Spazz.

[Honeycomb Jack]

Well, I found it mildly irritating that thread topics I think can be interesting (Harold Budd/Peter Blegvad) are already being dismissed as 'not getting enough attention', and being accused of not understanding Spastic Minnow's 'point' . Spastic Minnow was basing his views on what is happening on the xtcbackporch forum. I am saying that this is not conclusive. I had a look at the memberlist on the xtcbackporch forum to get some figures as to why his view is not conclusive, the same as my views are not conclusive, but it is a different view.

I am hoping that there will be more posts here regarding the music of these artists and that it doesn't degenerate into endless threads where the main objective is to post photos of things found on the web, ie spirals and birthday cakes. That is ok on the xtcbackporch forum but I wouldn't want to see it happen here.

This is a nice fresh forum which will hopefully attract nice fresh faces and opinions, just remember that you do not need to post on old forums over a thousand times to have a valid opinion.

It would be nice if the old forums were left on the doorstep before coming into this forum

And I'm under no illusions; I can't see this post being quoted with a 'Well said, Jack' underneath it.

Although it would be nice.

This post has been edited by Honeycomb Jack: Feb 12 2009, 08:25 AM

[Jeff Truzzi]

This is a nice fresh forum which will hopefully attract nice fresh faces and opinions, just remember that you do not need to post on old forums over a thousand times to have a valid opinion.

Well said, Jack - even though I already said it.
(IMG:http://ape.uk.net/forum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Honeycomb Jack]

Thanks, Jeff - I didn't want to presume the 'due respect' could be construed as a 'well said', if that makes sense!

[MXYZPTLK]

I more than happy to wait & see how this spanking new forum pans out & i agree that having it more 'artist' driven is totally fair enough. However, i do think there needs to be some kind of XTC related area, particularly with the upcoming re-issues with the extra bits & bobs chucked in.

I also think there should be a little corner of this forum where members can freely witter bollocks & the like. It's not to everyone's taste but no one has any obligation to join in the stupid threads. I think it's more reflective of Andy's career & art that there's a place for stupid & silly as well as a place for inventive & clever...

[Blushift]

To the points of one and all - The two previous forums, XTC Idea and xtcbackporch, were built on a community of individuals from all over the world.

Some of the these people are very prolific, some are reserved.
Some prefer the comfort of conversation, some just need to stop by once in a while.
Some are aggressive, some are passive.

The common thread between all is a passion in some way, shape or form for the music of XTC. I would hope that anyone with any exposure to one or both of the forums would have this understanding of the community that has built up over the years. With very few exceptions, I take nothing that anyone has contributed to these forums as absolutely frivolous, and do take some offence that topics that mean something to one or more individuals can be so easily dismissed as degrading the whole.

That being said, I'm going to have spaghetti and salad for lunch with some yogurt to finish. (IMG:http://ape.uk.net/forum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Spastic Minnow]

Well, I found it mildly irritating that thread topics I think can be interesting (Harold Budd/Peter Blegvad) are already being dismissed as 'not getting enough attention', and being accused of not understanding Spastic Minnow's 'point' . Spastic Minnow was basing his views on what is happening on the xtcbackporch forum. I am saying that this is not conclusive. I had a look at the memberlist on the xtcbackporch forum to get some figures as to why his view is not conclusive, the same as my views are not conclusive, but it is a different view.

In the Backporch we used to have a subsection for XTC fan gatherings, where members could tell their stories about meeting other members in person. It sat there for a couple months with one valid thread that got a handful of replies, and a dozen pointless threads by a certain simpleton (IMG:http://ape.uk.net/forum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) who thought it was silly to have an empty section of the forum. And even though he was mainly joking around, he had a point- why have an entire section where no one posts anything? So we merged it with the regular fan section. Here, Orpheus/Through The Hill/Monstrance don't just have subsections, they have entire sections of their own. Even you admitted that Through The Hill might as well be a subsection in collaborations- Orpheus and Monstance should at least be subsections instead of Sections all their own. Look at Monstance right now- Steve put in two subsections for the albums- Just how many separate threads can you imagine being started for each album?


Okay, you don't like my orignal suggestion for consolidation:

ARTISTS
>Veda Hille
>>(With topics about Riot Life and Kildeer- which invites new threads about non-APE activity)
>The Milk and Honey Band
>>(Seaparte threads about albums and other topics)
>Pugwash
>>(Seaparte threads about albums and other topics)
>Andy Partridge (and maybe XTC if this is to be a substitution for Idea forum)
>>(Seaparte threads about albums and other topics- maybe incorporate collaborations)
>Andy Partridge Collaborations
(Seaparte threads about albums, Orpheus, Under The Hill, Monstance, suggestions and other topics- because, face it- they're good albums but there's only so much to say about them.)



MISCELLANEOUS
>Love and Hate
>Gallery
>Talk Amongst Yourselves
>Suggestions

I made that without seeing that you could collapse threads, still I think some consolidation could be done.
But can you at least see how something like this would simplify things?

Veda Hille
>This Riot Life
>>(threads)
>Return of The Kildeer
>>(threads)
>Miscellaneous
>>(threads about non album subjects like live performances, media, etc.)

The Milk and Honey Band
>Dog Eared Moonlight
>>(threads)
>Secret Life of
>>(threads)
>Crumbs
>>(threads)
>Miscellaneous
>>(threads about non album subjects like live performances, media, etc.)
Pugwash
>Giddy
>>(threads)
>Miscellaneous
>>(threads about non album subjects like live performances, media, etc.)
Andy Partridge (and maybe XTC?)
>Fuzzy Warbles
>>(threads)
>(White Music)
>>(threads)
>(Go2)
>>(threads)
>(D&W.... etc.)
>>(threads)
>Miscellaneous
>>(threads about non album subjects like live performances, media, etc.)
Andy Partridge Collaborations (
>Orpheus
>>(threads)
>Under The Hill
>>(threads)
>Monstrance: Monstrance
>>(threads)
>Monstrance: Fine Wires....
>>(threads)
>Miscellaneous
>>(suggestions and other topics- because, face it- they're good albums but there's only so much to say about them.)


MISCELLANEOUS
>Love and Hate
>Gallery
>Talk Amongst Yourselves
>Suggestions



This consolidates 10 sections into 6- which loses nothing- enhances what we have- adds NONE of the dreaded community threads and allows for expansion without always having to add another section for every side project Andy might participate in.

I'm trying to be concillitory here- It's how I roll.

Comparing the content of of different forums has never been my main point here (we should all stop talking about it or split the topic elsewhwere). The point is how a forum should be organized. There is wasted space in this forum and yet IMO it still doesn't adequately cover the subjects that should be covered. The only reason I brought up the backporch in the first place is because I think it is a well organized forum, especially for one that was only supposed to be used for a couple weeks, it covers the subjects it needs to in an efficient manner.

This post has been edited by Spastic Minnow: Feb 12 2009, 06:51 PM

[Kendley]

If I were designing a forum chiefly for discussion of my products (likely -- I'm working like a dog on my own stuff!), I would not bury any saleable products under other headings -- I would keep them right up on top or very close to it.

From that standpoint, the present design is pretty good.